Women and the Priesthood Part 2

Ok. So this is an update to my last post. I've carefully read everything all of you said and laid awake the last two nights pondering (crying) over it. Thank you so much for your input. A quick summary is that my ideas were very nicely shot down by every single woman I trust and look to for guidance. So . . . I'm back to the drawing board. Which honestly is very disappointing. I cried for a little bit . . . but I want to at least get my questions formulated before women's conference tomorrow so I have specific things to listen for.

Have you ever had a question that mattered this much to you? I finally thought I'd figured some stuff out and then I'm plunged even deeper into confusion now. It's heartbreaking. But that's how these questions go . . . and I'm starting over. Things I really desire your thoughts on are colored.

First a summary of questions your comments reopened:

First, understandably almost all of you said you've never struggled with this, cared about having the priesthood, or etc. That's awesome for you. I marvel and wonder what it is you have that I don't. It seems so simple. You all just say things like, "I've never been bothered by it." Sigh. Like Alysa (best friend #1) said, ". . . all of our struggles come in different ways, and mine are no less painful for me to process." I'll try not to envy you since I'm sure you have/will have something different and similar crop up in your life that has never bothered me.

At the same time, I'd like you to consider this perspective from my mother-in-law who I know has run into similar situations as I have with men and authority in the church and maybe it will help you see why people like me have a frustration with not having church authority.

"I know in some of our past discussions about the important topic of the role of women and the role of the priesthood in the church I have expressed no desire to do the general duties the priesthood does; conduct meetings, PPIs, birthday interviews, callings, ordinations, blessings, assignments, committee organization, choosing themes, teaching doctrine, speaking assignments and putting on firesides to name a few. However, I have taken the time to think about my past church service and realized how frustrating it was to not have a voice in the administrative decisions of the church I served in."

"As a leader in an auxiliary organization it would be very difficult to get our opinions, ideas and inspiration heard.  The response would be some insipid smile and a limp explanation of how, "That is not the WAY we do it in the church".  It was belittling, demeaning, and insincere.  I recall the inefficiency of the ward councils as we were just told, "This is what we are going to do." without any genuine invitation to share real ideas except to solicit your approval of all the things they planned.  Ward Council was where you got told what the plan was and said yes to any assignment they deemed you capable of doing."

I have never been a Relief Society President (who knows that might answer some of my questions about the importance of Relief Society), but I have held leadership positions in the church and this has been exactly my experience. The men never asked for my input or took it when I offered. I was always told something was wrong with me if I ever offered an idea. On the other hand, very very poor ideas from young men and young men leaders were always accepted. It has been a very frustrating experience. Now, I no longer have to deal with this in my calling and I like it that way.

To be fair, my mother-in-law finishes by saying, "This does not put all men in that category, as I have observed Young Men leaders who were outstanding. It was just not my privilege to work with those." And I'll try to second that opinion, but I have a deep-rooted fear that any time any man (probably woman too but I've never seen it) gets called to some authoritarian position they abuse it in some way.



Second, I concede now that these women are protesting. I was impressed with the wording of the article originally and convinced myself that they were doing it in the same spirit I feel. Stina (best friend #2) said it best.

"I agree with your mom that these women are in fact protesting. The dictionary defines protest as 'an organized public demonstration of disapproval'. Yes it is a peaceful protest, but the point is still to cause a public scene and force decision making with the backing of public pressure. And, like you said, it’s going to be really awkward for the men going to the priesthood session and the ushers who have to deal with them. Do I think that they were wrong to ask for tickets? No! Of course not! I completely understand women who’d like to go to a live priesthood session (I mean I’d like to go to a live session too. I think that would be way cool). What I don’t agree with is the fact that they are not respecting the decision of the leadership of the church to tell them no. . . . They got what they wanted. They get to see the Priesthood session at the same time as the men. But instead of this group of women getting online and watching it they’re going to be standing outside the Conference Center protesting that they can’t watch it….??? I just really don’t understand."

So thanks, Stina. I totally agree with you. I guess the way they feel deviated from how I feel the moment they decided to still stand outside. At that point, they are truly protesting instead of taking advantage of the opportunity.



Third, it's seems to be the consensus that there was no division of labor at the Fall. I can easily let go of that one. I'm pretty sure I just misunderstood the family member who told me that now. However, this throws me back into one of the things I struggle with: gender is fundamental.

Ok. I totally believe this. I really do. I have no doubt that gender is part of my pre-mortal spirit. But I don't like it. It's really one of those things that my mind says all the time when these issues get too frustrating. "I wish I was a boy." "I wish I got to pick what gender I am!" (On that last one, Andrew sometimes tells me that I probably did have choice back when I understood what the heck is supposed to be going on down here.) If you have more insight on how awesome it is to be a girl always and forever . . . feel free to tell me. . . 'cause I am not feeling it. 

On the bright side, I like the way Alysa phrased the whole gender thing. "We have male and female because from the beginning it was the plan to have us live in companionships and to use our differences to complement each other until we have reached something far more incredible than we could ever reach on our own, even if we were absolutely perfect in every way." She's amazing. That's a beautiful summary. I'll tell you a little ways down why the whole gender thing still hurts me when I believe what she's saying here.



Fourth, Angela brought up something else that hurts me a lot. The whole women hearken to their husbands thing . . . I do not understand nor like this concept. First of all, if husband and wife are supposed to be dual witnesses to revelation for the family, how come the roles can't switch? How come there's no mention of husbands hearkening to their wives? Am I unable to receive revelation too? Am I unable to receive revelation he can't? And finally, am I somehow less important and less valued in a way that makes it so I cannot be a mouthpiece for God? That is what this whole hearken business tells my soul. 

Andrew has tried to tell me that the family should work in a way where the husband hearkens to the wife and the wife hearkens to the husband. And I believe that's how the family should work, but PLEASE if you have found anywhere that has some prophet saying that or somewhere in the temple (especially) that says that, please let me know. Because that seems to be a huge disconnect between practical religion and what the scriptures/prophets/temple say. Let's just say that's a BIG unresolved point in my testimony. If you have found something I haven't, I'd REALLY appreciate your input!

Second a summary of new insights I gained:

First, all of you had some amazing insights and words about why we still have separated meetings. First I quote my mother:

"I realized that if I was getting reprimanded in my duties, I wouldn't want someone there who would nag me about it but give me time to process it and try to practice it. By giving men time, the spirit can change the earnest in heart from the inside out and if they wanted support they could ask for it."

And now a word from my hero, HeatherLady from Womeninthescriptures.blogspot.com:

"Personally, I LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE it that in our church we still have segregated meetings for men and women. There is something SO powerful about a group of ALL women meeting together and a group of ALL men. I actually really looked into going to an all girls college once upon a time and as I was researching it I read lots of studies about how when it is all girls or all boys in a class that learning is enhanced. I think the same can be true for spiritual learning. Not that there isn't a BIG place for learning and cooperation between both men and women, but I think that we still need to preserve those places in society where genders can be separated. We really need those times when we can FEEL and SEE our sisterhood or a brotherhood." 

Others of you had really good insights into this too, but I felt these two quotes encapsulated it best. These two quotes really help me feel better about the different meetings. Especially since as a teacher, I really understand Heather's reference to segregated schools. It's true. Boys and girls learn differently and I have always noticed and appreciated how different the talks are between Priesthood and Relief Society conference. I guess, I always overlooked that fact because I wanted to be able to "help" the men around me. Let's be honest. My kind of "help" was probably just "nagging" as my mom puts it. While I know that "nagging" has helped a few men in my life, chances are things would just move along better if I let the spirit do the changing instead of the nagging.



Second, the church organization that I talked about in my first point above (that is so focused around men and that bothers me so much) is not eternal. Maybe I phrased that weird. I'm not sure if this point was my mother-in-law's own thoughts or from some other source, but it really did add some depth to my understanding. Let me quote it for you.

"This model [of church organization] is a mirage, and to the extent the church is selected as the object of admiration and reverence, it will only fool you. Remember the church will end with death. The government of God in eternity is His Heavenly Family. These family relationships endure. The church will remain a creation of, and occupant confined to the Telestial world. It is a Telestial institution, attempting to invite you to rise up to something more, something higher, something that will endure. But the church extending that invitation is not to be envied. Service in it is not the model of Celestial glory. Your family is the critical relationship in mortality.

A man and woman would be better off if they never held any church office other than home and visiting teaching. They would be better off if they realized it is the family alone that will endure, and then devote themselves to improving that relationship. Inside the family, the woman is the natural and undeniable counselor, and she is presiding within the family alongside her husband. She should join with him in blessing their children, she should lay hands on her husband when he asks and bless him, and she should be one with him. Because inside the home it is the husband and wife, not the bishop, who presides. Even the president of the church does not call a man to office without first asking his wife to sustain him in the calling. Nor does the woman get a calling without consulting her husband. All the envy and misapprehensions notwithstanding, the fact remains that the church is inferior to the family. The church is temporary, transient and Telestial. The family can be eternal, enduring and Celestial."

That's a deep thought that I'm still processing. Especially this sentence, "Inside the family, the woman is the natural and undeniable counselor, and she is presiding within the family alongside her husband. She should join with him in blessing their children, she should lay hands on her husband when he asks and bless him, and she should be one with him." If you understand what this is talking about, please tell me about it. These ideas still confuse me. I don't understand how a woman can preside if a man is told specifically to preside. I also don't understand how she can lay hands on her husband when she does not hold the priesthood. Thoughts?



Third, there is more to come about women's roles. This my friends is (I think) my central problem. I know I've expressed my fears about this to some of you before. The truth is . . . I don't know how I'm needed. I'm not a mother. I never served a mission. I cannot hold any important calling in the church. I cannot perform soul-saving priesthood ordinances. I'm not sure that I hold any worth or purpose to the Lord. Oh, I know. Just by being His daughter I have worth. Sure, you can say that. But if I have nothing to physically do to help the church, I don't see that I have any purpose being here. I want to feel needed.

This makes me wonder if this is how women who can't have children feel in the church. There is so much stress laid on women being mothers, that when you can't (or in my case just aren't yet) have children, I think many women (or at least I hope I'm not the only one) are left floundering for a purpose and worth. Oh . . . we can all be mothers in zion. That's . . . great. But honestly I don't see how great that is. To me being the prophet of the church seems a lot more important than being a nursery leader. And the fact that I can never attain (not that I want to . . . but I can't) the higher callings simply because of my gender which I have no control over is very hurtful. I sit here wondering what in the world I (or other women) have to offer the church. Surely I have more to offer than being a baby-maker and raiser.

I know this sounds very bitter. And I think you need to know that one of my greatest honestly my only real goals in life is to be a home school mom. It's all I've ever really wanted. I never had a great career I wanted to obtain. I kinda wanted to get my Masters . . . which I don't know if I'll ever get to do. I also really wanted to go on a mission, but that goal was denied to me because of my gender. Basically, as far as long term goals go . . . being a mother is it for me. BUT I'm not a mother right now. And I would like to know that I'm still worth something to this church. That I have purpose and power equal (not necessarily the same) to any man. That is what I don't see.

That is why these words from you are comforting to me. Alysa said, "We will undoubtedly receive more power in lives to come (priestesses... that has to mean something!)"

And Heather said,

"I think though that it is true that because we now live in a fallen world we may not always be living up to our full potential. I can't help but feel that as women in the church we are still lacking a BIG piece of the picture about who we really are. I think this is really what the Ordain Women ladies are after. I know that SO many good faithful women are asking themselves hard questions and often those questions don't have nice easy answers. True there are some women who really honestly do want the priesthood, but I think that what most LDS women are hungry for is just more LIGHT and TRUTH. They just want more knowledge about who they are and what their responsibilities are." 

"I think that is where the ordain women movement has gone wrong. They are asking and knocking but they are asking for what THEY think they need, and not asking the Lord for what HE is ready to give them, or asking what they need to do to  gain more knowledge and truth. To get the right response you often just have to ask the right questions."

And finally, Heather sent me this beautiful article  by Virginia Blythe called "Why I Think We're Having the Wrong Conversation". I'd like to give you a small excerpt from it.

"She’d [Neylan McBaine, founder of the Mormon Women Project] like the institution of the Church to reflect The Truth of an eternal relationship of celestial equality between men and women, and she’d like it to be spelled out. I hear that all the time in the Bloggernacle.

“In order for that to be clarified, there’d have to be another section added to the Doctrine and Covenants.”

“Until we have a clear revelation about Heavenly Mother, we’re all just floundering here.”

“It’s a nice theory, but until we have apostolic comment, that’s all it is.”

The issue isn’t that people are agitating for change in the Church structure to match the secular; the issue is that people want revelation. Good news!

 In the historical example that is used to explain every cultural force that presses against the church and the subsequent answers that come (the revelation to give the priesthood to every worthy male) we do actually see the workings of the Lord to bring about The Truth. (I now have the attention of agitators and conservatives alike). 

It was by slow revelation, inspired by intense, long-standing cultural pressure. Isn’t every problem we face? The Word of Wisdom came about because of the cultural pressure Emma placed on the prophet because of a filthy environment she had to clean up. He got more than he expected when he took the problem to the Lord, but isn’t that the purpose our problems serve? To open willing minds to greater views? And how did that revelation to Spencer W. Kimball occur? This is the undercurrent among those who consider this issue and are dissatisfied in the Church today. They want a revelation. They want cloven tongues of fire. They want The Truth and the end to contention and confusion. I do too.

We can know with complete certainty of the character and work of our Heavenly Mother precisely to the degree that we will value and protect her reflected work on the earth, as revealed over and over and over by prophets. The revelations that will shout The Truth from the housetops in all its glittering clarity will come when the simple call to “come home” is met with joyful gratitude for the opportunity rather than a defensive retreat to worldly definitions of power and influence. Power is not based in equality. It arises from consecration. A call for the kingdom to be remade in the world’s image is the least likely to invite The Truth.

And here is where we come to the true crisis.

We aren’t ready. We not only aren’t ready for Zion’s consecration because we can’t even agree about paying our tithing, much less giving all we have, we aren’t ready to know the character of the Gods. It will cause too many of us to stumble, so we are left with elementary, introductory, training wheels commandments and policies until we can learn to have faith in God and trust in our prophets. We are not ready for the company of those who’ve made consecration their existence, and since we are waiting for their return to prepare for the Savior’s return, that isn’t going to happen any time sooner either.

I take from this two things. First, that there is more to come. But as a church, be that prejudice of leaders (yes, I believe even apostles) or prejudice of the people, we're not ready for it yet. I personally think there are many parallels to the state of women in the church now and black men in the church earlier. The difference is they were waiting to receive the exact same benefits as other men currently had. Here, I don't think we're waiting for the Priesthood. BUT we are waiting for a clear understanding of our purpose, roles, and responsibilities. The responsibilities of men are very clearly laid out. There are tons of revelations and apostolic talks on it. But the responsibilities, roles, and duties of women are not the same. They are vague and unclear. This is what we are waiting for. But until we accept what we do have, we're probably not going to get the next step.

That being said. As you clearly can see above, I am one of those who does not accept what we already have! Please does anyone have insight into this, "joyful gratitude for the opportunity [of being a mother] rather than a defensive retreat to worldly definitions of power and influence." This is what I don't understand. I can see how I try to apply worldly definitions to the spiritual situation, but I cannot see how wonderful the opportunity is to be a mother. Can some of you share you insights into this?

Finally, it seems rather depressing to know that we're not ready for more truth. What if I figure out my issues only to find that nobody else gets with it in time? Heather has a very touching response for me:

"I could really relate to what you said about what if they say something at general conference that shatters your tiny testimony (which I don't think is as tiny as you think it is :). I think that is one of the hardest parts about asking the Lord questions-- getting the answers. Sometimes they aren't what you expect or sometimes the answer is 'not yet" and that is hard. But keep putting drops of oil in your lamp by doing all the right things-- praying, studying and faithfully listening to the prophets. They won't lead you astray. They might not always say what you want them to say-- but if you listen with the spirit I am sure you will learn exactly what you need to learn. And God will answer your questions. 

You don't always need to have a prophet say it from the pulpit to know something is true. God might not be ready to give revelation to the church as a whole yet but he will give ALL knowledge to individuals who seek it and are ready for it. Like the brother of Jared, if you keep asking and keep having faith you will get answers he won't be able to withhold it from you. But sometimes that means also that you have to be willing to keep things he tells you in your heart." 

That made me cry. Correction, makes me cry every time I read it. Both because it hurts to know deeply that I probably won't like some of the answers I'm going to get, and because it's so hopeful to remember that revelation can come to faithful individuals before it comes to the whole church.

Finally a conclusion:

I know this was a really long post. I hope you'll still read it. It was amazing to me to get insight from the five women I most desire instruction and insight from. I got spiritual wisdom from my two best friends, my two mothers, and my hero. That means a lot to me and really helps me make progress in this journey. I want to say how much I appreciate and love your comments. 

As conference comes tomorrow and the following week, I will be looking for answers to the following questions. And I invite you to listen for answers to. The last several conferences, one of you has shared something with me that I desperately needed to hear from conference, but for some reason did not hear till you said something to me. I'll be back after conference, and will share what I found and I hope that you will share what you found with me as well.

Here are my final questions:

• What worth do I have as a daughter of God?
• What purpose do I serve to the church, beyond being a mother?
• Why is being a mother so amazing?
• What are my responsibilities as a woman in God's church?
• How can women give input into administrative functions of church?
• What the heck is this whole hearken thing supposed to mean?
• What power do women have?
• What is the role and responsibility of a Heavenly Mother?

Thanks one last time, friends. You are amazing and I love you.

Kenzie

The Beginning of Answers

Ah. The beginning post. Not many people read it, and it's more of a symbolic beginning. I wanted to start by explaining why I even started this blog. To be honest it's mostly for me. But I do want to share what I learn with my girlfriends, family, and anyone else who has questions about being a woman in the LDS culture, life, and gospel. Why would I write this? Is it because I feel like I have wonderful answers to share with people? Not really. Honestly, it's the opposite. Like I said, I'm writing this mostly for me. I don't have the answers, and I've struggled with the questions for a long long time.

I don't really want to list my questions, because it gets me on a train of negative, degrading, and confusing thoughts. Let's just say that all of the topics to the right are things I've struggled with. Up until now, I've spent my whole life confronting my demons only once every few months and packaging them up the rest of my life and ignoring them. All that meant was that when I had to confront them, I could expect several hours of sobbing and depression.

I know. Don't think poor of me. And until recently it's felt like nobody has answers. Not church leaders, family members, prophets, or teachers. Everything people said seemed to make it worse. Then this year, something changed. I started receiving revelation in ways I never expected. People around me were saying things that just sparked thoughts that I knew didn't belong to me. I wrote them down, and it helped for a little while until some other big confrontation occurred. A few days ago, I found this lady's blog: Women in the Scriptures. And she said something that changed my whole perspective: study the scriptures!

I know! It's nothing you wouldn't think of . . . but she said to read the entire standard works and highlight everything that mentions something female related. Wow. So far, I've been so surprised by how much there is. Not everything is spiritually enlightening (since I've been highlighting a lot of "daughters" from the phrase "and he begat sons and daughters"), but you know what? It sure makes a difference to flip through pages (electronically) and see all that pink. It makes me feel like the scriptures do relate to me. It's beginning to change my whole perspective. I'm finding counsel everywhere to help with my concerns. Here are a few general topics I'm going to try and address for myself. (You can always find them as tags to the right.)

1) What does it mean to be a wife and how do I be a good one? How can I be an equal partner while having my different roles?

2) How can I still be a missionary at home? I didn't get to serve a full-time mission, and I know I'll always hold a little regret for that even if I made the right choice. So how can I still serve my mission while staying at home?

3) What are the divine attributes of women and what should I be working on? What exactly is my divine nature?

4) How is motherhood a blessing and not a burden? How do I contradict my negative feelings about it?

5) What exactly does the Relief Society do? What should we be doing? Do we really have equal opportunity for leadership as the men? Do women do important things in the church too?

6) Not going to list all my questions here . . . but I have got to find some understanding for certain things that happen in the temple. I promise I won't break covenants when I post, but I've found some really good resources helping me understand some things and I want to share them and search for more.

7) Has the church had a history of oppressing women like the rest of the world? Or did we play any important roles in our history?

8) What women are in the scriptures, and what can I learn from them?

9) If men have the priesthood, what do women have? What is our power?

Anyway, as I said I don't have the answers. But I have faith I'll find them. Eventually. Even if it takes my whole life (as I suspect it will), someday I will know the answers to all these questions and all the others that come up. To anyone who wants to join me on this journey, WELCOME! All I ask is that you acknowledge that people do have these questions and struggle with these problems and refrain from saying things like, "Well I've never struggled with that." or "I don't know what the big deal is." Trust me. It doesn't help. I know you all have your questions. (If you don't you're not thinking hard enough.) This blog just documents my search for my answers.